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No...this really is effin sad....

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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:37 pm

Tex, please do not misunderstand....I fight the bail outs to be very upsetting.
We should have let them fails, and yes...it is not only disgusting or arrogant, but most likely immoral....that once bailed out they took that fat cash and paid such grotesque bonuses to their elite bretheren.

It is gross.

My only point in this, is that their mismanagement of their fortunes, no matter how they got them, does not entitle the less welathy to a pice of the cake.

Two wrongs and all that.

On the Occupy deal, Spent...I do not see a 'movement'. These people, nationwide, cannot hold a cohesive purpose long enough to get even one directional soundbite. I think instead of it being a movement, it is more a collective of frustration that has no other place to be channeled.

ultimately though, the rest of the '99%' that are not camping and protesting....don;t support it. No matter where you look, what media you follow, or what your political leaning is....if you look/ask around...you will find....most do not understand the point, and nor do they support it.

The truly unfortunate part about this in Portland is that the Mayor is/was too weak to deal with this. I think I understand what he was trying to do, however he slipped up. The idea of cooperation was limited at best, and like a spoiled child they took that inch and stretched it a few more miles.

Now the pressure comes.

The retail association ins the downtown core are not going to stand for this going inot the holiday season. no matter how much you hate that idea, it is a formidable amount of pressure.

Sammy wants to avoid the riots seen in other cities and wants to find a way out without that happening.

But (this is the important part) the rioting is invitable. It always was. From the very start of it. It is the only way it can end.
And the cops will win.
Again, there is no other possible outcome.

I only pray, and emplore anyone camped there that has children....leave...leave now. Get your children to a safe place. the skull cracking is coming. The police are chomping at the bit...and the protesters want it too much.

There is no other outcome to be had.

May God protect the children.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Tex » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:06 am

Police going after children in the streets? No way!!!!
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Tex » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:07 am

Some people are ready to fight for this Wilbur. They are ready to riot.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby qball » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:13 pm

Wilbur, thanks for the thoughtful response. It didn't piss me off because I probably agree with you more than you realize. And I'm not bitter because I heartily agree that life isn't fair, get over it.

For instance, I agree with you that business owners are in it to make as much money as they possibly can. More power to them. It is the backbone of our system. But I am also in it to make as much money as I can. I don't have the acumen to be a business owner, so I'm a wage slave. I realize that limits my ability to make boat loads of money. But there are a lot more of me than there are of them. So I will use the tools as my disposal, such as government, unions, and my own ability to take my experience and ability elsewhere. Right now it is a battle between owners and employees (or jobless) and the government is the referee. A lot of people on both sides feel like the ref isn't calling a fair game and they're trying to get a few more calls to go their way. That is also part of our system.

However, it is a myth that many of the ultra wealthy got that way off their own hard work. For instance, the owner of my company is the third generation owner and doing his damnedest to run it into the ground. In my humble opinion, a big part of that is because he puts less value on the people of his corporation than his father did, sacrificing skilled people for the bottom line. It is a well-known business rule that you can't cut your way to success. So he cuts and cuts and the business dies while he keeps his fat pay. Completely his right. But I don't have to like it. And I don't have to like it that his money counts for more of a vote than my vote.

Other business owners really did do it on their own. Good for them. But they didn't work more hours a week than I did, they just worked smarter. I wish I was smarter like them and I don't begrudge them that. But I still provide the labor for their success, I pay for the roads and the infrastructure that makes their business possible, I pay for the schools that keep the kids off the street and away from vandalizing their business, I pay for the social benefits of a well-running society. I don't think it is unreasonable of me to want them to pay more for the society that makes their success possible. As you say, if they don't like the costs, they are welcome to try to run their business in another country. And you will answer that many have done just that. So maybe we should stop rewarding companies that are so disloyal to us with massive tax breaks and rules bent in their favor.

And I'm not unhappy being a piece in the machine. I actually like my job. But I don't like what's being done to it. Again, life isn't fair, I know it, but I'm not one to just lie down and take it. I respond with the tools at my disposal.

no my friend, the system seizes up when people are spending money they don't really have, and when the collector comes to call it in...everything collapses. And that plays into the whole entitled idea. We are told we 'deserve' everything, so we go buy it. Even if we cannot pay for it.


Economists will actually tell you you are wrong here. There is tons of economic research that shows when the savings rate goes up, the economy suffers. While it is good for the individual to live within his means, it is not a sustainable economic model. The high savings rate is what has killed Japan for more than a decade. Our economy runs on enough people being stupid with their money. So if you want to be smart with yours, be thankful someone else is killing themselves with credit cards.

You got me fair and square about the having to work three jobs to support my life. I'm not happy about that. But at the start of this we were working 2 jobs and putting more than a grand a month in the bank with the expectation that buying a house would freeze our housing costs somewhat while our income continued to grow. Instead we had a kid and our income decreased by 20 percent. I'm not whining or crying. As you say, that's just life. But my bad decisions were somewhat built on faulty information.

Finally, I agree that the Occupy people probably aren't accomplishing much. But I don't understand the hate against them. They are fighting the system, an impulse I would think you would understand. They are refusing to be pushed around anymore. So what if they are camping in a park that almost nobody uses. So what if they use drugs or drink. So do we. And the fact it has been a beacon for the homeless and the mentally ill shows just how badly our system has failed some of the most vulnerable people. We should praise them for tackling with minimal resources a problem that the rest of us just ignore.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Doc » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:10 pm

I am not in it to make as much money as I can...
I am in it to surf as much as I can...
Which takes money...
But when you make as much money as you can...
You don't surf much.

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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:21 pm

qball wrote:
Finally, I agree that the Occupy people probably aren't accomplishing much. But I don't understand the hate against them. They are fighting the system, an impulse I would think you would understand. They are refusing to be pushed around anymore. So what if they are camping in a park that almost nobody uses. So what if they use drugs or drink. So do we. And the fact it has been a beacon for the homeless and the mentally ill shows just how badly our system has failed some of the most vulnerable people. We should praise them for tackling with minimal resources a problem that the rest of us just ignore.


Q, I agree with much of what you have said but this last point is sadly uninformed. Its tragic all round. There is hate for a number of reasons... Tents that have 'Stay the f*ck out' painted on them for one. how does that drum up support for Occupy? How does antagonizing someone for dressing smartly labeling them the '1%' promote class unity?

i can't blame the homeless- they are sick and tired of sleeping on loading docks and being awoke by the cops at 2am every night and now they have a relatively stable place to camp... but now there are hundreds of them piled on top of each other within an highly contained area. this isn't good for the drug addled, the manic depressive, the schizophrenics amongst them. they are literally freaking out. they are desperately confused--- perhaps thinking they are fighting a good fight but really only caring about their own survival. much of the f*cking media plays on this chaos, laps it up, and spits it out as a venomous picture of how crazy these 'protesters' are without considering these are broken individuals who have been falsely empowered. meanwhile the calm and articulate politically educated 'activists' get very little useful attention.

we've lost some kids to this camp. kids who had housing programs lined up, college lined up. kids who are fleeing the sex trade but are now right back in the thick of things. we've got people od'ing in 'safe injection' tents. its insane. some people argue that this makes the issue more visible, which is true but at what cost? these are human beings- its not a f*cking zoo, nor should they be pawns for the cause.

i'm watching damaged kids i personally know putting themselves in harms way, when they have places they can be to resume healing their broken lives, and i fear, that once this done and dusted, they will be back to square one or worse.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby qball » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:00 am

Spent, you're closer to this than I, so I respect your view. And considering your work, I believe your concern for the campers' welfare to be genuine. But I see pious talk by the mayor, the police and other luminary citizens about their concern for the campers' safety and health to be so-much self-serving baloney. The camp is by no means a healthy environement, but it is no worse than the loading docks and alleys you mention and in some ways - for some campers - it's a step up.

As for the offensive postures and signs of some, well, what do you expect? Polite protests that follow all the rules are even less effective than antics that draw attention. I would wager that many who are "horrified" by signs that say f*** have dropped more than a few f-bombs themselves. They dress scuzzy? Many of them probably don't have better, don't know any better.

All the failings of the camp are an indictment of our society. We created these people. They were kids once, raised by our neighbors and friends and family, by the people we refused to help or helped too much with misguided policies.

I can hear Wilbur now saying they should take responsibility for themselves. Yes, they should. But sometimes a kicked dog just doesn't know any better than to cower and snap until somebody has the patience and kindness to teach it better.

I'm too selfish to do much more than help my closest family and friends. But I don't begrudge those trying to do more. I can criticize when I come up with a better way and do something about it or pitch in.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby qball » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:01 am

And I apologize for being so long winded. I find this movement and the reaction to it fascinating.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- 'WOW, what a ride!!!'"
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:50 am

Q, once again I agree with most of your points. There is not much point now of debating the merits of the camp- its on its way out. I just hope it goes as smooth as can be and not too many skull are cracked. I hope Occupy PDX can recover, get creative and resume with more efficient tactics. Mostly, I hope the conversation continues and the experiments in direct democracy continue.

As for better ways to do things. Hare to repeat myself by Argentina had a great social experiment going a few years back. I highly recommend this book that is made up of interviews with people who participated.

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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Sparky » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:44 am

Wilbur Kookmeyer wrote:Tex, please do not misunderstand....I fight the bail outs to be very upsetting.
We should have let them fails, and yes...it is not only disgusting or arrogant, but most likely immoral....that once bailed out they took that fat cash and paid such grotesque bonuses to their elite bretheren.

It is gross.

My only point in this, is that their mismanagement of their fortunes, no matter how they got them, does not entitle the less welathy to a pice of the cake.

Two wrongs and all that.


I agree that the less wealthy do not deserve a piece of the cake just because some thieves, opps I mean corporate CEOs got a government Bail out just to line their own pockets. But there is no law that says we, as a people can not pressure OUR government to go back to those GREEDY SOB's and say.. screw you all.. we want our bail out money BACK!!!!!
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:50 am

well, i'm eating some of my words. i think occupy pdx has changed my mind. i think its very apparent now, this rag tag camp is hugely symbolic of the wider movt after all. people, (cops/mainstream media and politicos included) are indeed engaged in meaningful conversation about this global crisis due to this camp. last night, the media went down there hoping to cover pepper spray, vandalism and crazy hippies willing to get arrested, instead they were forced to accept it was too big and too popular too police in the manner they had planned. instead the time was filled discussing what it all means. even lt king eloquently conceded this isn't about control over grass and mud in two portland parks.

i think occupy pdx have convinced me that all the mis-haps, drugs, craziness, filth in the camp and so on is just a microcosm of what's happening anyway. one dude framed it in a way i hadn't considered. two people who od'd over the last few weeks, were brought to the park and had their lives saved. another od'd on site. instead of dying under a bridge somewhere he is still alive also.

as much as the camp is an inconvenience and against a lot of what i've learned in social work, i think last night was a victory, and they've validated their presence.

no social movt in my memory has provoked such far-reaching conversations. critics are fuming and so they should be but
if you don't like it- go to a GA, wait your turn on the mic- and get stuck in and tell them what they're doing wrong. it seems like a pretty welcoming forum to go down and voice your opinion. get a little taste of democracy and see where it goes.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby smithgrind » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:31 am

I'm so relieved my fears about last night's situation didn't come true and truly impressed with all parties involved in the manner with which this potential conflict was and continues to be resolved. The barricade was removed by the protesters, the road blocks were removed by the police and there was only one injured cop and one arrest. Let's hope this progression continues...
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:37 pm

well thats that... for now. i think for better or worse the end of this camp will galvanize the pdx chapter of occupy. will it lead to more political cohesion? who knows. maybe the movt will disperse for awhile but the issue at hand isn't going away. capitalism is in its late-stages. its unsustainability has never been more apparent. i do find it interesting that many critics assume the occupiers are clueless lazy drop outs begging for a hand out. from what i've seen there is a lot of self-determination going on. just organizing a GA seems a very arduous and frustrating process. i see no reason why libertarians or tea-party activists can't get stuck in and add their 2 cents and widen the debate. even wilbur could get up on the mic and tell them they need to shower first, knuckle down and make sh*t happen for themselves. there's some common ground here, i feel.
Last edited by Spent on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:43 pm

Wilbur Kookmeyer wrote:
But (this is the important part) the rioting is invitable. It always was. From the very start of it. It is the only way it can end.
And the cops will win.
Again, there is no other possible outcome.

I only pray, and emplore anyone camped there that has children....leave...leave now. Get your children to a safe place. the skull cracking is coming. The police are chomping at the bit...and the protesters want it too much.

There is no other outcome to be had.

May God protect the children.


Very glad, you were wrong about all of that. Not to say, this isn't on the horizon at some point.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Sparky » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:57 am

Spent wrote:
Wilbur Kookmeyer wrote:
But (this is the important part) the rioting is invitable. It always was. From the very start of it. It is the only way it can end.
And the cops will win.
Again, there is no other possible outcome.

I only pray, and emplore anyone camped there that has children....leave...leave now. Get your children to a safe place. the skull cracking is coming. The police are chomping at the bit...and the protesters want it too much.

There is no other outcome to be had.

May God protect the children.


Very glad, you were wrong about all of that. Not to say, this isn't on the horizon at some point.


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