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Unions

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Unions?

Fo shizzo my nizzo!
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64%
Oh hell no!
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36%
 
Total votes : 11

Unions

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:57 pm

Seems like we are need of a good scrap...

Though I already know which way this is going to go....

Here is a quick overview of what I see:

Unions suck @ss.

Unions only care about the business of the union, not it's members.

Unions put a stranglehold on companies.

Most of what unions were started for has long since become law or common practice, and they now only serve the lowest common denominator.

I think there is a myth at play that people do not think through very much. Do people really think that the massive additional costs of having to deal with a union are going to be paid for by the companies themselves? Like they are going to gladly take on the additional labor costs, take a cut out of their profits, and not pas that along to the consumer?
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Postby Gazsurf » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:26 pm

Gotta have 'em, there isn't an alternative that I know of. Time for modern America to start singing some Wobbly's songs like their grandparents did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial ... _the_World
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Postby speelyei » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:03 pm

Personally, I got the best benefits, compensation, retirement package, and hourly wage when I was a member of IBEW Local 125. Also, obtaining my Journeymans Card after my apprenticeship gave me a legitimacy, marketability, and pride I would not have otherwise obtained as a Blue Collar worker.
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Postby Doc » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:05 pm

I am pro union...
I just don't want it in my workplace...
Because I'm in management.
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Postby Gazsurf » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:20 pm

doc wrote:I am pro union...
I just don't want it in my workplace...
Because I'm in management.
doc


Nimby!
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Postby grizldoldfk » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:35 pm

my mom married this guy when i was about thirteen. president of the state afl-cio or whatever. drove a big lincoln. wore shiny zip up boots. had some big friends and they were all kinda mysterious. but he took on the role of step dad as bast he could, and i never made it easy on him.
one day i came home from school and plopped down in front of the boob tube and there he was on the evening news. getting arrested. he was home in time for dinner. and i saw him in a very different light from then on. and much later i marched with him alongside jessie jackson and some dude i just can't remember his name but he was representing the migrant farmers that they were spraying with poison so we had nice grapes yeah that dude, he was impressive. and i met this chick there and fell in love. she had been assaulted by police in nyc during a pot rally and was using her law suit money to go to law school. unions are the hsit.
i've got a hundred stories like this and all of them represent thousands of people who otherwise would have no voice.
don't like unions? i understand...kinda, because like doc said, you're probably in a management position. but take yourself outta there for a sec and imagine...just imagine...what if there was no such thing?
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Postby grizldoldfk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:02 am

cesar chavez.
his name was cesar chavez.
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Postby Gazsurf » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:39 am

grizldoldfk wrote:cesar chavez.
his name was cesar chavez.


Your step dad was Cesar Chavez and you're just now remembering this?
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Postby bluesilver » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:07 am

Unions suck @ss.

Unions only care about the business of the union, not it's members.

Unions put a stranglehold on companies.

Most of what unions were started for has long since become law or common practice, and they now only serve the lowest common denominator.


You have either never been in a Union or you just know nothing about them other than what your grandpa told you.

Unions care about their business, yes.. becuase they are a business.
If they did not care about the members, there would not be any members.
I was a member of the local International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. There was a lot of politics (a lot!).. but they took very good care of me when I needed anything to further my education.
Care about the memebrs? How about a 70k a year pension for a buddy who retired last year plus other benefits! How about health coverage that costs 10 bucks a month for your WHOLE FAMILY no matter how many kids you have! Plus damn near everything medical/dental/vision etc paid in full. How about the fact that after I left that Union, they still gave me health benefits for 5 months becuase of an account they opened for me that tossed dimes into it for every hour i worked, just in case i was laid off.

Stranglehold on companies?? A lot of companies START themselves as Union. My dads a member of the local IBEW as a manager for a commercial electrical contractor that chose to Union becuase they value their employees enough to give them the best.
How about the ability to hire/lay off at will without all the BS?
Jobs over.. layoffs... Company stays afloat because they are not paying people to stand around and do jack S just to keep them happy.
Yeah, lets say a company has less than safe working condition. The Union steps in and makes that right. Does a non-Union company care? HELL NO becuase even if they get sued when there is an accident they will likely have the money to completely F with the person until they give up.

How about the ability to bid and get HUGE multimillion dollar jobs knowing you have a massive work pool to get very qualified workers from?

Yes, a lot of their practices have become law or common-place.
Boo hoo Wilbur you mean you have to honk your horn now when your driving a forklift and keep first aid kits readily available??
Aw Shat! People at your work need to know how to perform CPR? Un-American!!
People don't like making 6 dollars an hour? Screw them! We're in it to make ourselves rich, F the little guys. They don't need benefits.

Please...
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Postby pra_ggresion » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:40 am

One other thing is prevailing wage. If a contractor isn't union they can underbid then hire unskilled labor (immigrants). Unions force non-union contractors to pay whomever they hire to pay the same wage they'd pay a skilled American that way they might as well hire skilled labor. The client gets a quality product and every one gets a decent cut. The unions accomplish the creation of those types of standards politically. This is the number one function of a union. To make equal the imbalances inherent in a free trade economy.
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Postby bluesilver » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:35 pm

One of the reasons I left was becuase I found a lot of people in the local IBEW lack integrity amoung other things. I saw a crapload of backstabbing... forman screwing up and blaming a journeyman..who promptly gets laid off. I saw a lot of people who have known each other for 10 or 20 plus years and they acted like best freind to each others face, but promptly pointed the finger at said freind when the superintendent shows up and there is a problem.
But I also knew good people.

I was once reported to the supervisor for taking my 1st break an hour late because I showed up an hour late (which was pre-arranged). One of the journeymen said I was "breaking down work conditions".

And there are a few people that no matter how good they have it, they always think they deserve more. But that is everyone at every job.

In defense of non-union labor.. some of the hardest and smartest guys i worked with were electricians that had just joined the union after working most of their career non-union. And some guys who just start Union from the beginning act a bit spoiled.
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Postby Trula » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:11 pm

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Last edited by Trula on Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:19 am

speelyei wrote:Personally, I got the best benefits, compensation, retirement package, and hourly wage when I was a member of IBEW Local 125. Also, obtaining my Journeymans Card after my apprenticeship gave me a legitimacy, marketability, and pride I would not have otherwise obtained as a Blue Collar worker.


Forgive me if I am wrong about this, but the Journeyman card only matters in union shops...right?
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Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:57 am

Blue...going to answer a few points...your points are in bold..

You have either never been in a Union or you just know nothing about them other than what your grandpa told you.

Experience is how I "know nothing" about them. I did not know my "granpa".

Unions care about their business, yes.. becuase they are a business.

I think it is important to really understand this point. They are a business first and foremost. Above their members welfare...business first. Just like the business owners you seem to be so bitter towards.

If they did not care about the members, there would not be any members.

I don't buy that. I think my best friend would argue differently after losing his union job this past summer. When it came down to it, the 18+ years he had in the union...held no weight for them.

I was a member of the local International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. There was a lot of politics (a lot!)..

Enter the stranglehold. This is the sand in the cogs that slows production and interferes with the day to day business.

but they took very good care of me when I needed anything to further my education.

That's good. Some companies do that without the union. Some. More should. However, in the end...the comany paid for it.


Care about the memebrs? How about a 70k a year pension for a buddy who retired last year plus other benefits!

That's good. And it is something that should be built inot the companies by their own hands. However, the falacy here is that the union did not pay for it....the company did.

How about health coverage that costs 10 bucks a month for your WHOLE FAMILY no matter how many kids you have! Plus damn near everything medical/dental/vision etc paid in full.

Who do you think pays for that? Do you think the insurance company says "oh...yer a union...okay....you only hav to pay $10 amonth for the benefit"?

Do you know what health benefits cost a company?

I pay $200/mo for mine...and it is better than it used to be...but my company pays another $300/mo for me.

If you want lower health care costs, pinning the expense on the company is not the way to do it. try driving down the ridiculously increasing medical costs at their root.

How about the fact that after I left that Union, they still gave me health benefits for 5 months becuase of an account they opened for me that tossed dimes into it for every hour i worked, just in case i was laid off.

At the expense of the company who struggles to show a profit so that the job exists in the first place.

Stranglehold on companies?? A lot of companies START themselves as Union. My dads a member of the local IBEW as a manager for a commercial electrical contractor that chose to Union becuase they value their employees enough to give them the best.

I got nothing on that.... :lol:

How about the ability to hire/lay off at will without all the BS?
Jobs over.. layoffs... Company stays afloat because they are not paying people to stand around and do jack S just to keep them happy.


There is a segment...construction..bid type jobs where a union could make sense, but day to day manufacturing and processing is not the place for it. Neither is the grocery store or the bar down the street.

Yeah, lets say a company has less than safe working condition. The Union steps in and makes that right. Does a non-Union company care? HELL NO becuase even if they get sued when there is an accident they will likely have the money to completely F with the person until they give up.

Blue..no offense...but you obviously have never been on the management side of a company. Do you have any idea what workers comp accidents cost a company? What the average cost of a back strain is? What about the loss of use of a hand?

This statement above could be no farther from the truth. Workplace accidents are on the mind of management every single day. The stupid things that people do are evident every single day. union or not..people take risks, even when they are trained not to.

And it costs companies big time.

Not to mention the loss of productivity in having a team member out on an injury, or "light duty", or having HR crawl up your @ss about it, or the boys upstairs hammering you about it, or the fact that you flat out care about the people in the trenches and want them to have healthy productive lives.

Of course then there is OSHA too....

How about the ability to bid and get HUGE multimillion dollar jobs knowing you have a massive work pool to get very qualified workers from?

Wouldn't that be great if those possibilities existed today... :lol:

Again...bid-type jobs may make sense....but not the floor people in JCrew at the mall.

Yes, a lot of their practices have become law or common-place.
Boo hoo Wilbur you mean you have to honk your horn now when your driving a forklift and keep first aid kits readily available??
Aw Shat! People at your work need to know how to perform CPR? Un-American!!


We are not union. ALL of our supervisors have CPR certification, defribulator training, training on identifying an impaired person, we constanly train our supervisors and our team members on safety, review safety, we have a team member based safety commitee...the list goes on and on....

We don't need a union to tell us this is needed...or laws....and maybe..honestly..we do it because an injured or dead employee costs money. And momney motivates.


People don't like making 6 dollars an hour? Screw them! We're in it to make ourselves rich, F the little guys. They don't need benefits.


And now we really get down to it....it is about sticking it to the man right? The man who keeps you down....

This is why Obama's legislation is so dangerous to industry (what industry is left) in this country.

Every "entitled-minded" yahoo out there is going to sign a card when given half a chance because they already believe they are entitled to more than what they are being offered. Not that they have actually earned it...but that they believe they are entitled to it just by breathing.

It is a way for the poor, down trodden, little guy to stick it to the man with all of that bitterness in their (and seemingly your) hearts.

We have ushered in an entire generation of people that believe that each and every single person is special and deserving of the best. The idea of competition, fair, honest work is lost on an entire generation.

There are entire libraries out ther on how to recruit, manage, and keep good players in a generation that feels entitled, who are over-indulged...spoiled.

And that is fukt.
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Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:05 am

pra_ggresion wrote:One other thing is prevailing wage. If a contractor isn't union they can underbid then hire unskilled labor (immigrants). Unions force non-union contractors to pay whomever they hire to pay the same wage they'd pay a skilled American that way they might as well hire skilled labor. The client gets a quality product and every one gets a decent cut. The unions accomplish the creation of those types of standards politically. This is the number one function of a union. To make equal the imbalances inherent in a free trade economy.


I love "prevailing wage". Why is it the "prevailing wage" always seems to be about 2-3 times the going rate for similar jobs in the a non-union gig? :lol:

Quality product? Out of a union? HA! That worked great for GM auto production.... :lol:

Unions do not give a crap about imbalances...they want the power, the jobs, and wages...for one reason only...to make money for the union.

Unions are anti-free trade.

And that is the point.
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