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The Gun

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The Gun

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:34 pm

First off, I am not a member of the NRA.

The NRA is nothing more than a mouthpiece and often spend more time tripping over their dicks than doing any good for 'the cause'.

I would also like to offer that anyone who thinks that an armed 'militia' armed with any weapons, even 'military style' weapons, woudl be effective in an armed resistance to the US government, or any government other than Canada, are delusional.

Their level of delusion is only sedonded by those poor folks like Bluesliver that think they will ever disarm themajority of the US. Of course this delusion is almost as sad as teh delisuion that a ban on 'military style' weapons and 'high capacity' clips will ever make a difference in the safety of anyone.

The reality is, guns will never save you from your own government, and guns will never be completely banned.

Do any of you 'ban the AR15' champions even know anythign about the operational characteristics of an assault type weapon? Do you really beleive a ban on 'high capacity' ammunition clips will slow anyone down enough?

Two things:

This 'ban' is a ban on the sale of. Not a ban on the possesion of. This does absolutely nothing about the THOUSANDS of these weapons already in possession. Nothing.

Nor does it do anything about the possesion of any of the THOUSANDS of 'high capacity' clips already in existence.

Take the Clackamas shooter into thought. Did he show up with one clip and a box of ammo?
What about the Newton shooter?
Matter of fact, what about any shooter ever in the history of public shootings?

No, the vast majority of these types of shooters that use an assault type weapon show up with MULTIPLE clips that are already loaded.

So back to my question, how many of you know how many movements it takes to change clips in an assault weapon? Anyone?

Answer: 2-3 (depending on the weapon.

Witha simple push of a bottom, the empty clip will fall to the ground. The shooter then slams another clip into the receiver and either cycles a round into the chamber, or simply starts pulling the trigger again.

So I ask you, will it really matter if the clips being used hold 10 or 30 rounds?

Go back to the Clack or Newton shooter. They both carried multple clips. How would this have slowed them down?

The average response time for police is like 6 minutes.

How many shots can one effectively get off, while using a 10 round clip, in 6 minutes?


Background checks.
Another joke.

The newton shooter failed the background check, but still was able to get his han ds on weapons. Sure, you can blame this on his mom for not locking them up better, or even having them in the house to begin with. But remember this, he would have found a way to obtain the weapons.

the clack shooter stole the weapon from a friend.

How would background checks have stopped either of these shootings?

Now lets look at teh actual elements involved. Everyone is making this about the gun, and not the shooter. Teh reality is, the gun is an inanimate object. It cannot, ever, take action by itself. It lacks everything it would need to act on it's own accord. It has rely on the intent of the user.

We cannot put the gun on trial. We cannot send it to prison, we cannot correct it's actions. It is a tool. Like a hammer, a knife, or a fishing rod.

No gun has ever gone off accidentally by itself. It's a physical impossibility. It can only be facilitated by the action or inaction (choices) of human beings.

Another thing about laws, and this should be so obvious but few talk about it. You know the old saying 'if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"? As gay as that is, and as trite and cliche, it is blaringly true in these two cases.

The Clack mall is a 'gun free' zone.
The school in Newton was a gun free' zone.

And outside of the self-proclaimed lone CHP permit holder, the only people carrying guns in each of these locations were the 'outlaws'.

Can you really tell me that taking any guns away from legal, law abiding citizens, will do anything to deter weapons related crimes?

Seattle just had a gun buy-back. They clsoed having brought in hundreds of weapons and giving out over $35k in gift cards. Their last buy-back in 1992 resulted in an increase in gun related homicides, gun related armed robberies, and gun related assaults. those are facts, look them up.

The reinstatment of the last assault weapons ban is nothing more than talk. It will result in a slight inconvenience for LEGAL gun owners, and do not a damn thing for the 'outlaws' of the world.

For the record, I do not own an assault weapon. Wait, yes I do. It is a Remington Model 8 that was made in 1918. Under the definition in the law it would be classified as a 'military style' assault weapon. It's a hunting rifle. It has a fixed magazine that carries only 5 rounds. However the Rem. Model 8-2 had a detachable clip that held more rounds. It was a rifle that was favorited by law enforcement, especially Texas Rangers, and was a model used in the gunning down of Bonny and Clyde. not that is matters, it's just interesting. Anyway, other than that I do not own an assault rifle. I don;t need one. They do not mean anythign to me. Jyst another weapon. Big deal. I own several other guns. My entire household is trainedin handling and firing them all. If you came into my house with poor intent, either you or I will be dead. And I will do my best to make sure it is not me or ayone in my familly.

I carry a handgun from time to time. I am a LEGAL permit holder. If you meet me in public, and thoruhg your own actions leave me no other choice than to fight for my life, or the lives of other 'innocents', I will do my best to kill you.

In either case I will not shoot to wound, to stop, or to scare you off. I will shoot to kill you.

I'm not a badass. I am not tough. I am a big softie and I love people and want to beleive the best in those around me. I am not paranoid or delusional. I am not a gun fanatic. All weapons I own have a purpose for me. And none of those purposes are related to some fantastical idea of an armed insurrection.

One final thought, as if you are still reading, Tomothy McVeigh (sp?) never fired a single shot.

sorry for any typos or spelling issues. I hate my new laptop and my sausage fingers make a lot of mistakes. Mmmmmm.....sausage....
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Re: The Gun

Postby Doc » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:04 pm

Ultimately there probably isn't any truly 100% effective action or actions to take but I'd like to see some action taken. I suspect the only partial solution is to change the overall culture, like something along the lines of drunk driving penalties for use, sale and possession of certain types of weaponry and ammo. Huge fines, jail time and the like. I'm not a gun owner, grew up in a gun family and don't have a problem with people owning guns. I do have a problem with the people that have access to ridiculous guns with no purpose other than they mimic the video games they like playing where they kill multiple people in invincible mode. I have a problem with people that don't secure their weapons properly so that their kids, or their kid's friend, get shot because they haven't a lick of common sense.

I haven't been in a fight since high school, I have had to subdue drunken idiots in the course of my job a handful of times and given the option between conflict or flight I'd prefer to flee rather than risk my, or someone else's injury or death. Of course , I would defend my family if a situation occurred but I do tend to avoid places and events of that nature. Like walking through SF's Chinatown last month from N. Beach at 1am after I had had plenty to drink. If my wife had been with me I would have taken a cab. Otherwise, if something came up I would have run, if running didn't work, I'd defend myself or give them my wallet. It all depends on the situation.

The use of force is a tricky one in our society, if you defend yourself and someone is injured or killed you can still be charged with assault, manslaughter or murder. If you use force beyond what "society" deems acceptable you could go to prison. Even if you're aquitted of criminal charges you could face civil penalties that could ruin you.

There's no easy answer but we've got to start somewhere and I hope there will be some action taken to start the ball rolling and allow me to listen to the NRA and their supporter howl in outrage.

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Re: The Gun

Postby SooLoo » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:24 pm

Wilbur, you may be a big softie but you must have an extremely strong lower back from carrying this page for so many years. Well argued point. I am anti gun in my own house and it pretty much ends there for me. The gun debate has never changed in and of itself. Knee jerk reactions from both sides based on emotion and not cold facts in the wake of a tragedy. Do our gun laws need to be looked at yes, but with the scare tactics and politics muddying the waters it would seem hard to get anything concrete done. These things take time and debate to be done right in my humble opinion.
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Re: The Gun

Postby wanty » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:11 pm

there are 300 million guns in the US right now. The damage has been done! Good luck trying to take them away from people. Legislate all you want, its not going to stop psychopaths.
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Re: The Gun

Postby bluesilver » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:36 pm

I'm off to buy a Springfield Armory XD .45

Don't need an assault rifle.

I know how to shoot.
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Re: The Gun

Postby Trula » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:45 pm

Bought a bunch of guns, joined the NRA, but can't afford to shoot them since ammo is scarce these days thanks to Obama.
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Re: The Gun

Postby bluesilver » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:59 pm

And Trula, yes assault rifles are a lot of fun to shoot. A few months ago I was out in the woods camping and shooting.

Turns out the place we picked was pretty close to a large group of some kind of wannabe asian gang members judging by the bad looks, bandanas and rice rockets all about. Probably 20 or so of them. It looked like they were either camping or hiding from the po-po.. The bad looks quickly turned to "oh SH** those honkies are shooting large calibers 30 yards from our camp, head for low ground"..

They cleared out pretty quick. I guess a couple white guys firing off bursts from an AR15, 1911 and 9mm for 45 minutes, even in the opposite direction, make people nervous. It was fun even when the rangers showed up. How polite they were.

I don't think anyone necessarily needs assault rifles, but damn they are fun.

And who knows... if the government is way ahead of us regular civilians in weapon technology and people really are Scared of an invasion of government forces onto their "freedoms" and property, then it might not even make a difference what kind of weapons we posses.

I am wondering who the Department of Homeland Security needs all those millions of rounds... Maybe if they know they won't be able to force the army to turn on us regular peeps, since they are often level headed individuals (though my time in made me come to terms with how dumb a lot of these individuals truly are), why not come up with a new type of "security" force that you can train as your own to handle an unruly popularion of American Citizens, aka Dept. of HLS...

But, that's just some devils advocate stuff. I'm not too worried about it, but it might make a good book.
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Re: The Gun

Postby Trula » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:01 pm

bluesilver wrote:I am wondering who the Department of Homeland Security needs all those millions of rounds... Maybe if they know they won't be able to force the army to turn on us regular peeps, since they are often level headed individuals (though my time in made me come to terms with how dumb a lot of these individuals truly are), why not come up with a new type of "security" force that you can train as your own to handle an unruly popularion of American Citizens, aka Dept. of HLS...


The whole DHS hoarding ammo thing is just a crazy conspiracy theory. DHS has a lot of LEO's under it's umbrella that it trains. The Secret Service, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, ICE, Customs & Border Protection, and Federal Protective Services all fall under DHS. It takes rounds to train 1 new officer training at FLETC. On top of that you have quarterly range qualifying and usually there is additional training that will eat through several hundred rounds per an officer. For example multiply the number of rounds used per an officer (~500/yr) by the number of gun toters at a given location lets use 400 = 200,000 rounds/year. That is just at 1 location. Some agencies also giver their officers additional practice ammo. That also doesn't include rifle and shotgun rounds. Oh and you can't forget the Simuntions for scenarios (paintball rounds from real guns). Sim rounds are still not fun to get shot with though. The zap of the shock knife still scares me more than sim rounds narrowly missing me though. So in reality the purchase of ammo by DHS is not anything to worry about.
Since my safety relies on well trained shooters on a daily basis I will be the last to complain about the amount of ammunition purchased by DHS. So you can stop worrying about DHS plotting to use the ammo on citizens and worry about what other scheme Obummer has for infringing on our second amendment.
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Re: The Gun

Postby Trula » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:01 pm

bluesilver wrote:I am wondering who the Department of Homeland Security needs all those millions of rounds... Maybe if they know they won't be able to force the army to turn on us regular peeps, since they are often level headed individuals (though my time in made me come to terms with how dumb a lot of these individuals truly are), why not come up with a new type of "security" force that you can train as your own to handle an unruly popularion of American Citizens, aka Dept. of HLS...


The whole DHS hoarding ammo thing is just a crazy conspiracy theory. DHS has a lot of LEO's under it's umbrella that it trains. The Secret Service, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, ICE, Customs & Border Protection, and Federal Protective Services all fall under DHS. It takes rounds to train 1 new officer training at FLETC. On top of that you have quarterly range qualifying and usually there is additional training that will eat through several hundred rounds per an officer. For example multiply the number of rounds used per an officer (~500/yr) by the number of gun toters at a given location lets use 400 = 200,000 rounds/year. That is just at 1 location. Some agencies also giver their officers additional practice ammo. That also doesn't include rifle and shotgun rounds. Oh and you can't forget the Simuntions for scenarios (paintball rounds from real guns). Sim rounds are still not fun to get shot with though. The zap of the shock knife still scares me more than sim rounds narrowly missing me though. So in reality the purchase of ammo by DHS is not anything to worry about.
Since my safety relies on well trained shooters on a daily basis I will be the last to complain about the amount of ammunition purchased by DHS. So you can stop worrying about DHS plotting to use the ammo on citizens and worry about what other scheme Obummer has for infringing on our second amendment.
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Re: The Gun

Postby bluesilver » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:59 pm

I don't know that he's necessarily infringing on the 2nd. I'm not aware of him doing something illigal. We have the right to bear arms, but it doesn't say what kind, so its kind of open.

Why is DHS buying up all the hollow points? Do they train with them rather than using ball ammo?
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Re: The Gun

Postby Trula » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:11 pm

They always train with what they carry which is hollow points.
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Re: The Gun

Postby the dude » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:33 pm

out of curiosity, because of obama how has ammo become scarce?

Trula wrote:Bought a bunch of guns, joined the NRA, but can't afford to shoot them since ammo is scarce these days thanks to Obama.
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Re: The Gun

Postby Paul Dresman » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:26 pm

This must be the last thread of the last topic of the last of the Surf Page in Oregon. Nobody cares anymore. And it's about guns? God save you from your dick. Or your stick. What a sad end to a once-vibrant discussion about breaks and space. About nature.
We could have continued a discussion about waves and three-dimensional possibilities, but it devolved into hate. Why?
I guess the coast of Oregon wasn't sufficient.
All you had to do was to take-off and ride the surge. Curiously, the surge is still there. Everyday.
The surge is amazing. So is the ocean. You don't need either an opinion or a gun to ride a wave. In fact, you only need your body. A pair of fins helps. A body-board gives you even more plane. A board is even better, if you're inclined to paddle and ride. Why not?
I just happened to visit the big island of Hawaii, and some friends took me to a hippie beach down a steep and rocky trail. Everyone was naked and beautiful, and you should have seen the water, and the way everyone got along, looking down, swimming out.
Wow!
You're missing out. You're missing out on Eden and paradise, and it's right here. It's right now. All you have to do is drop the hardware, accept your spirit, and love one another. Or die.
Goodbye.
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Re: The Gun

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Mon May 06, 2013 9:17 pm

Paul, I miss you.
I never thoght about you.
I never thought about missing you.
But now I realize I do.

I miss you, in the way I miss my innocence.
I miss you in the way that I miss what this place once was.
I miss you in the way that I miss what surfing once was for me.
And I miss you in the way that I miss the people that I have known here, and those whom I liked, enjoyed, and even loved, on many levels.

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Re: The Gun

Postby bluesilver » Thu May 30, 2013 12:53 pm

Picked up a 30-06 too
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