I can't believe I just wasted an hour and a half on this post. It probably doesn't make any sense and I think we are probably on the same page anyway. My basic argument is that the system we have is a direct result of how our economy evolved to give us all the things that we own and use and which some of us really like and also the human tendency for greed and self preservation. Here goes...
Spent wrote:i think i'm with ceedog, erzats. the two party system is just a slow plod to our doom with a meaningless jostle every four years. there is no room for meaningful debate within this political context. they both have no interest in looking beyond this unsustainable economic arrangement called, capitalism.
I am not a fan of capitalism either nor am I fan of our current system. But, you have to recognize the irony of debating capitalism when the computer you type on, the surfboard you ride, the cars you drive, the gas you put in them, the food you ate today, and everything else in your life is available to you because of capitalism for better or worse. Sure, the creation of all of those things cannot continue forever on this planet and it really is in humanity's best interest that we stop making all of this crap. But, are you really ready to forgo all of these things? Are you ready to instate population controls (or allow disease/war/famine to play the roles they used to in keeping the population in check) that keep the need for economic growth down? I guess what's at issue here is how we take the offramp, how quickly we leave the freeway, how many come with, and what happens when people actually get out of this stream. My feeling is that the status quo exists because our political system has evolved pretty darn well to make most Americans and people in the developed world as a whole comfortable enough to shut the hell up. We are complicit in the suffering in the world that arises because of our system, because of those possessions, and because of our wealth no matter what your idealogical bent is here on the OSP, bumperstickers, or elsewhere.
man its too early for this but in no way are anarchism and libertarianism are 'easy ways out' nor do they 'have a lot of followers' b/c most of us can't see beyond the status quo. in saying that there are plenty of examples of how these too 'systems' of thought have worked on small and large scales. the most striking, that people continue to ignore, is 99% of human existence, pre-civilization.
I guess I read a lot of viewpoints from people who oppose what we have, and who latch onto things like less government, or lower taxes, or no government at all, but who also make no clear arguments why those are better choices or who fail to recognize that a lot of those systems are equally flawed in the end. They fail to recognize that there is a lot of "wealth" in the world and that the vast majority of people are not going to settle until they have a bigger chunk of it. Grabbing at wealth begets capitalism or corrupt communism.
the only balance possible? c'mon mate, you have an imagination. i read a great book recently about how vermont should secede from the union. devolution or de-centralization is a good first step towards people having a tangible grasp of democracy, some say over their own community, a voice of some form.
So what happens once Vermont secedes? Do you think the democracy suddenly becomes more transparent because you are dealing with a smaller complex? Doubtful. There are still going to be wealthy fukheads who strive to gain and hold power and suppress the politically weaker/financially less powerful right back into happy fascism as you call it. Maybe a less centralized system will better be able to adapt such nations to vagaries of local resources and worker potential but I'm not sure if it would result in a system of government and economy that looks any nicer than what we already have.
as for the slaves comment, we already are... for us it friendly fascism, for a garment worker in Taiwan, perhaps a little closer to the real thing.
yes I know all of this too. You better be ready to stop buying shite (Patagonia etc etc etc) made in taiwan/thailand/and soon Haiti (did anyone else notice how Clinton snuck right in there as an economic development czar and now the people of Haiti will be making our clothes yay! Viva neoliberalism).
i do agree that this might not be one big intentional conspiracy... it is what it is now and maybe there is no way out but for us complacent slaves 'the easy way out' is to continue to have faith in this ugly mess and to ignore human potential, a potential we've lived as hunter-gatherers and even had glimpses of within the capitalist/ industrial context: the Paris commune, 1930s Spain, the Zapatistas, your local food co-op... blah blah....
anarchism, libertarianism... personally i don't subscribe to isms... but these aren't pie in the sky ideas used to lazily critique libs and cons while doing nothing. they work on the premiss that human beings get a long a lot better when they are not barked at to do so and that makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm not saying anyone needs to have faith in this. I think people (myself included) really need to make an effort to understand exactly how our current and alternative systems work within the context of the global economic/technological/social environment that we live in. People should make an effort to understand that throwing out comments like "we should all go back to preindustrial living" needs to be backed up by just as much doctrine and dogma as what we already have for it to actually work. I agree that people probably behave a lot better when they are not being "barked at" but somewhere along the line in the 1% of human existence between the 98% that came before and what we presently have an original sin was committed.
Someone decided that they needed a little more, they decided to be clever and get ahead a little, they probably had their slaves work a little harder and, viola, we were on the road. Don't forget that humans have always oppressed other humans, that the earliest 99% of people being people was full of a fair amount of really god awful stuff too. I guess what needs to happen is humans need to digest this whole pre history and history and then figure out how to plot a course where that really innate tendency of humans to get ahead and to try to make themselves more comfortable is suppressed by rational thought, leadership, and well, love for thy neighbor.
I'd be really surprised if anyone actually read all of this... Luckily I got some sick waves today, so I don't feel like I wasted any time.