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No...this really is effin sad....

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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby harg » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:57 pm

I don't think they'll accomplish much, but i'm glad they're doing it (and i'm technically part of wall street). deregulation doesn't work in finance and not enough has been done to fix it (even though we are still suffering from a housing/loan disaster that proves deregulation doesn't work). i don't really mind that the viacom CEO made $80M in a year, that's america. they create something that people value and that doesn't threaten the financial stability of the country. i do mind that the CEOs of Bear/Lehman/ML/etc are sitting on islands from churning sh!t loans that were never going to be made whole, and that now fall on us and our kids. more needs to be done to realign risk and reward at the top of finance (there should be no profiteering institution that is "too big to fail"), and maybe the OWSers can keep that message alive.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Doc » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:05 pm

This article has some pretty good illustrations of how f'ed up things have gotten...

http://iamdaveallen.com/thinking/2011/10/12/heres-what-the-occupy-wall-st-protesters-are-angry-about.html
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Critter » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:27 am

I may shed a tear or two of joy. If, this thread gets much longer. Just needs more Wilbur in it to whip up the desired froth level. Cue---> Visceral, intelligent, angst laden, provocative commentary.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby qball » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:00 pm

Wilbur, you're right. A whole lot of people created their own problems and their stories make for good soundbites.

But what about the rest of us? My wife's pay has been cut every year for three years. My pay has been cut close to 20 percent in four years. Strangely, our bills haven't. So I found a second job that I worked instead of sleeping. That job dried up a couple of weeks ago. The bills keep coming. Meanwhile, my corporate owner has seen his income go down too. He's only making tens of millions instead of hundreds of millions. I know he has had to cut back too, but it would be nice if some of his cutting back meant more money in the pockets of his employees, at least until we can start earning him gobs of money again, rather than god knows what he spends his wealth on.

In case you're wondering, I have a college degree, which I paid for myself without student debt. My wife has a master's degree, which she earned to get a better paying job. Both are real degrees aimed at employment. I suppose I could get another job, but I make more now than I could starting over in another career.

Yeah, I made some bad decisions but it would have been OK if things didn't keep getting worse.

So, yeah, I want some of that CEO's pay because he got rich off the work of me and a bunch of people like me and the system has been set up so that me and a bunch of people like me don't have a lot of options other than to keep taking it or to take to the streets.

Our economy mostly runs on the sale of goods and services. People have to have jobs to buy that stuff, to make the whole cycle work. The system seizes up when most of the money is in the hands of a few people who can't spend it as fast as they make it.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Tex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:05 am

I read an article about Occupy Wallstreet discussing all of the different messages coming from this group.
It concluded that action is the message. Regardless of what the 99% is upset about, they are upset enough to get off the couch, turn off the TV, skip the football game and get down on the street and make their presence felt. In Oakland they shut down the port, in Seattle they are laying down inside Chase and blocking off hotel entrances where the President of Chase is staying. On Saturday, a ton of people will be pulling their money out of the big banks, myself included.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:09 am

Exactly. It is an experiment in direct democracy and horizontal/anti-authoritarian organization. Like in Argentina, a few years back, after their meltdown and all the subsequent neighbourhood counsils and work place takeovers. People want to feel some direct control over their lives... Consensus decision making is messy and cumbersome but pretty authentic.

Nice piece by Garry Younge in today's Guardian, addressing just that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/knows-occupations-going-great-moving
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:06 pm

someone was waving a gun around at occupy portland yesterday. i hate to say it but that camp is done. it is not helping 'the cause' at this point. what you have is a high concentration of damaged, homeless, mentally ill and drug/ alcohol affected people living within feet of each other.

it is not healthy and no longer a viable 'social experiemnt' in participatory democracy, because most of the inhabitants are not politically engaged- they are just taking advantage of the fredom to camp out. who can blame them? as the camp probably seems more appealing than sleeping in a doorway and being woken by the cops at 2am but i feel like the wider movement is just using these people as pawns while tainting its own image.

from my angle i can see that the occupy camp has delayed many vulnerable youth from engaging in services that might be able to help them and is enabling them to live in this festering free for all. i was working with 20 youth a week until the camp and now it is down to about 3 and i know where they have all gone... at least work is quiet.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Sparky » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:24 pm

I have to say that after reading Wilburs logic in defense of the republician way He has finally presuaded me to go along with him and changed my core beliefs. If you are not rich or don't have a job, "Blame yourself" If your tired of paying high taxes, "Blame YOURSELF".. You could start a multi-billion dollar corporation and avoid taxes like the rest of the big corporations. So if you don't make hundreds of millions of dollars a year, don't cry about it, just "Blame YOURSEF"
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:39 pm

Q, this is bound to piss you off at some level....not that I care...but just so you know...

qball wrote:Wilbur, you're right. A whole lot of people created their own problems and their stories make for good soundbites.

But what about the rest of us? My wife's pay has been cut every year for three years. My pay has been cut close to 20 percent in four years. Strangely, our bills haven't. So I found a second job that I worked instead of sleeping. That job dried up a couple of weeks ago. The bills keep coming. Meanwhile, my corporate owner has seen his income go down too. He's only making tens of millions instead of hundreds of millions. I know he has had to cut back too, but it would be nice if some of his cutting back meant more money in the pockets of his employees, at least until we can start earning him gobs of money again, rather than god knows what he spends his wealth on.



The reality is, business owners are in business to make money. It's that simple. And like it or not, that is their RIGHT to do so. All trimming is done from the low hanging fruit first. Meaning that the 'easiest' cuts are at teh bottom. Right or wrong, that is the way it is.

The inflection I gleen from your reference of the tens of millions your business owner makes is somewhat bitter and seems to lend to the idea that this is somehow unfair. Well, it is unfair. Tough.

Not everyone gets a blue ribbon.

That is a lie of the more left leaning. Can't keep score in sports...can't have the children feeling bad...well...the realit is, there are 'winners' and 'losers' all over the world. Not that your boss is a winner and you a loaser, but you get what I am saying. You want a piece of his action? Then do what he did.

I do not believe that just because someone simply makes a shitload of cash, even a grotesque amount, it doe snot mean that anyone is entitled to some of their wealth.


In case you're wondering, I have a college degree, which I paid for myself without student debt. My wife has a master's degree, which she earned to get a better paying job. Both are real degrees aimed at employment. I suppose I could get another job, but I make more now than I could starting over in another career.


Good for you. I mean that. I do not have a college degree and it is tough sometimes for me as this fact can block me out of even a most natural progression of my career. However, a college degree does not gaurantee a high paying job, or even a well paying job. It's just means you are educated, and that can lend itself to your career path, but it is no gaurantee.

By the way, I truly was having a conversation this afternoon with a director of a government service that I want to work for, but even though I am more qualified in terms of ability and experience than many of those on the payroll already, I cannot join the club simply because i do not have a degree. It sucks, but it is one of the consequences of my own choices.

Yeah, I made some bad decisions but it would have been OK if things didn't keep getting worse.


We all do, however as bad as things get, they could be worse, and are bound to get better.

So, yeah, I want some of that CEO's pay because he got rich off the work of me and a bunch of people like me and the system has been set up so that me and a bunch of people like me don't have a lot of options other than to keep taking it or to take to the streets.


I disagree with everyhting you are saying here, other than you want some of that CEO's pay. I hate to tell you this, but he also got righ off of his own hard work. He built a machine of which you are only a cog. You are as replaceable as any other part in the machine. I am not sure why people have such a hard time with that idea.

I know my generation was lied to. We are the MTV generation. We grew up beleiveing we would all be rich and famous. but that is just not the reality. The truth is, we are just people, and the things we do for a living are just a means to an end, not the end itself.

If you are truly unhappy being a piece in the machine, then leave the machine. You are not a victim.

And that is the part that pisses me off the most. Is the victim metality and entitled attitude. not really of you, but in general. that is what is wrong with everyone. there is this idea that somehow we are victims of those more furtunate than ourselves and that somehow we are entitled to more than what we ourselves earn.


Our economy mostly runs on the sale of goods and services. People have to have jobs to buy that stuff, to make the whole cycle work. The system seizes up when most of the money is in the hands of a few people who can't spend it as fast as they make it.


no my friend, the system seizes up when people are spending money they don't really have, and when the collector comes to call it in...everything collapses. And that plays into the whole entitled idea. We are told we 'deserve' everything, so we go buy it. Even if we cannot pay for it.

Years ago, I was maing around $30k/yr. Not a lot of money. Was a single father, and could barely keep my ehad above water, but was doing alright. I found a crappy run down home that seemed like i might be able to afford to buy, if it would stay standing long enough to pass the inspection. My credit was okay, not great, but not horrible. So I go talk to a mortgage broker. With a straight face he tells me he can laon me up to $275,000 for a home loan. On a $30k/yr salary.

I ran from his office. And I knew where this was all going to go.
When these types of loans started flooding the market with buyers, the home values went through the roof.
But again, when the collector came around calling in the debt, when those ARM's and 80/20's etc came due....it was all over.

Only problem is, everyone allready spent the money...and the money wasn't real. It flat out did not exists. This period we are in is not the fault of the banks, or the CEO's, or the rich....it is EVERYONE'S fault....well...not mine...but mostly everyone.

And even though my wife and I don't have to work 3 jobs to pay our bills, we also do not live of of credit, and we are no more than a paycheck or two from looking for someone to blame ourselves.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:44 pm

Tex wrote:I read an article about Occupy Wallstreet discussing all of the different messages coming from this group.
It concluded that action is the message. Regardless of what the 99% is upset about, they are upset enough to get off the couch, turn off the TV, skip the football game and get down on the street and make their presence felt. In Oakland they shut down the port, in Seattle they are laying down inside Chase and blocking off hotel entrances where the President of Chase is staying. On Saturday, a ton of people will be pulling their money out of the big banks, myself included.


First off, they are not the 99%.
I am part of the 99% they claim to speak for and they do NOT speak for me.
If I had somehting to say, I would say it myself, thank you very much.

Let me ask you, what does shutting down the Port of Oaklnad achieve? What does interfering with the commerce of which many middle-income or lower-income people need to make thier way have to do with 'stickin it to the man'?

Do the math. Shut it down for a day, the truly wealthy person they are trying to impact barely feels a thing, while the hourly guy/gal trying to make the rent just lost a day's worth of wages.

Do you really think there is any point in that that justifies the damage being done?

here is your resality check...the rich...don't freakin care about the Occupy people or any sort of message they may have. They simply do not care.

You can;t make someone care.

Trust me.

Ask any of my ex-women how hard I tried to make them care.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:45 pm

Spent wrote:Exactly. It is an experiment in direct democracy and horizontal/anti-authoritarian organization.


A true democracy cannot survive.
Eventually the citizens in the democracy will figure out they can vote in a bunch of 'free' services and the whole thing collapses.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:51 pm

Spent wrote:someone was waving a gun around at occupy portland yesterday. i hate to say it but that camp is done. it is not helping 'the cause' at this point. what you have is a high concentration of damaged, homeless, mentally ill and drug/ alcohol affected people living within feet of each other.

it is not healthy and no longer a viable 'social experiemnt' in participatory democracy, because most of the inhabitants are not politically engaged- they are just taking advantage of the fredom to camp out. who can blame them? as the camp probably seems more appealing than sleeping in a doorway and being woken by the cops at 2am but i feel like the wider movement is just using these people as pawns while tainting its own image.

from my angle i can see that the occupy camp has delayed many vulnerable youth from engaging in services that might be able to help them and is enabling them to live in this festering free for all. i was working with 20 youth a week until the camp and now it is down to about 3 and i know where they have all gone... at least work is quiet.


Spent, you know I have nothing but respect for you and for the work you do. Work that actually matters. I am sorry you are now aware of the sad fact that this thing was destined to fail anyway. Quite honestly I am amazed it took this long to collapse.

I only wish that those that will soon be evicted would realize that their right to free speech is not being denied. I kept hearing sound bites of protesters being chapped because their right to free speech was under atack in all of these clashes with cops, in Oakland, here, and elsewhere. But the reality is their right to free speech was never questioned. They were just ebing held to the same occupancy laws that we all ave to abide. The park closes at 10:00 pm....if you are here after that you will be cited....there is not mcuh in there that invoilves anyone's right to free speech.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Wilbur Kookmeyer » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Sparky wrote:I have to say that after reading Wilburs logic in defense of the republician way He has finally presuaded me to go along with him and changed my core beliefs. If you are not rich or don't have a job, "Blame yourself" If your tired of paying high taxes, "Blame YOURSELF".. You could start a multi-billion dollar corporation and avoid taxes like the rest of the big corporations. So if you don't make hundreds of millions of dollars a year, don't cry about it, just "Blame YOURSEF"


You are welcome to blame yourself if you like. Or you could change your own life.
The choice is yours.
Just quit blaming everyone else.
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Spent » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:21 pm

Wilbur Kookmeyer wrote:
Spent wrote:someone was waving a gun around at occupy portland yesterday. i hate to say it but that camp is done. it is not helping 'the cause' at this point. what you have is a high concentration of damaged, homeless, mentally ill and drug/ alcohol affected people living within feet of each other.

it is not healthy and no longer a viable 'social experiemnt' in participatory democracy, because most of the inhabitants are not politically engaged- they are just taking advantage of the fredom to camp out. who can blame them? as the camp probably seems more appealing than sleeping in a doorway and being woken by the cops at 2am but i feel like the wider movement is just using these people as pawns while tainting its own image.

from my angle i can see that the occupy camp has delayed many vulnerable youth from engaging in services that might be able to help them and is enabling them to live in this festering free for all. i was working with 20 youth a week until the camp and now it is down to about 3 and i know where they have all gone... at least work is quiet.


Spent, you know I have nothing but respect for you and for the work you do. Work that actually matters. I am sorry you are now aware of the sad fact that this thing was destined to fail anyway. Quite honestly I am amazed it took this long to collapse.

I only wish that those that will soon be evicted would realize that their right to free speech is not being denied. I kept hearing sound bites of protesters being chapped because their right to free speech was under atack in all of these clashes with cops, in Oakland, here, and elsewhere. But the reality is their right to free speech was never questioned. They were just ebing held to the same occupancy laws that we all ave to abide. The park closes at 10:00 pm....if you are here after that you will be cited....there is not mcuh in there that invoilves anyone's right to free speech.


i have to point out that we should be careful to differentiate between the camps (particularly the portland camp) and the 'movement' as a whole. i was pretty certain the Portland camp was destined for disaster after my first visit. it is certainly, time to move on from the 'occupation' model. i do still contend there the wider movement it provoking useful dialogue amongst us and introduced lots of people to direct democracy- as messy and cumbersome as its been.

argentina in the mid-2000s briefly engaged in a similar experiment of bypassing the politicians/ elections etc and setting up a federation of neighborhood councils that were organized horizontally in much the same way as occupy intended without the insanity of occupied camps....

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/latin-america-rising/horizontalidad-where-everyone-leads
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Re: No...this really is effin sad....

Postby Tex » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:26 am

Wilbur, you outline your support for these large corporations and how they are making millions of dollars becuase of their hard work. I will counter with a hypothetical JP Morgan scenario.

Say I am JP and I bust my butt to open and grow a bank, it grows and grows because of my hard work. Then I start taking some risks on credit and other mortages (not unlike a shit ton of Americans who took risk on mortages they could not afford.) I get bonused out and I bonus the shit out of my exectutive team for all their hard work. Fast forward to 2008 and all of a sudden I am neck deep in risk and about to go under.

Thank the sweet LORD I am too big to fail and I am propped up by the Feds. Wilbur, in a pure capitalist system, "too big to fail" does not exist. Execs at JP Morgan Chase are still getting bonused with our tax payer dollars. If banks are too big to fail then our education system should be too big to fail, our healthcare should be too big to fail, our social security should be too big to fail. My biggest complaint is that the rules of captilism which are designed with the knowledge that failure will and should happen have been broken for the 1%.

So if I start my own company, how do I get a peice of that action Wilbur? Becuase if I know I can get a corporate bail out like the finance sector or get huge incentives like the big four Oil Companies or not pay a freakin ounce of taxes like GE, then guess what, I am freakin in bro!
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